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Wow. That sucks. Why are men so stupid?
Because some women allow it?
If all women decided tomorrow that they would stop dating jerks, believe me, the overall populations would see an apparently jump of 20 IQ points.
Unfortunately, that won't happen. As long as some women accept that kind of behavior, the kind of men who pull that crap will never have the motivation to change.
Tom Allen
The Edge of Vanilla
I do agree that I hold some of the responsibility for how I am treated. I try not to allow him to speak to me in a disrespectful way. I left when I realized that he could be and would be violent towards me. But as much as I agree with Tom's statement I also disagree. It just seems odd that I am not only responsible if I am a jerk but I am responsible if he is a jerk. Doesn't he hold any of the responsibility for his own behavior? But I do agree that if I didn't react there wouldn't be anywhere for all that negativity to go. I won't answer the phone next time. And that is truly a sad thing. He has finally done it. He has pushed me to the place where I don't want to try to be friends. I don't want to try to get along. I just want to try to forget I ever knew him.
His birthday was on Friday and our anniversary was yesterday. I saw that he called me yesterday but I couldn't answer. There was a chance he wanted to pick up the boys. But even that wasn't motivation enough to answer. I am tired of him using the boys, I am just tired of the whole thing. When I think about the things I said on Thursday it makes me feel dirty and awful. That is not who I am or what I am about. Why would I let anyone even Don take me to a place where I am spewing out insults like that on Thanksgiving? I sincerely hope that Cam didn't hear any of what I said. But the bottom line is Don didn't call and ask to speak to Cam. He didn't call and invite his sons to go to dinner with him. And even when he called the 1st time and we were having a somewhat civilized conversation he didn't wish me a Happy Thanksgiving or ask what the boys had been up to or what our plans were. So it would be naive to think that he was calling for the boys yesterday.
No he was calling to finish what he started. He was calling because after more than a decade of tirades and down right disrespect from him I struck back and landed a punch right between the eyes. He decided years ago that if I won't come back, if I won't live with him the way HE wants, then he will make sure that I am miserable on my own. I have tried every way I can think of to keep him in the boys life and also keep him from making me miserable. And I am resigned to raise the boys alone (I essentially have been doing that anyway) if that is what it will take to move forward...
Because some women allow it?
If all women decided tomorrow that they would stop dating jerks, believe me, the overall populations would see an apparently jump of 20 IQ points.
Unfortunately, that won't happen. As long as some women accept that kind of behavior, the kind of men who pull that crap will never have the motivation to change.
Tom Allen
The Edge of Vanilla
I do agree that I hold some of the responsibility for how I am treated. I try not to allow him to speak to me in a disrespectful way. I left when I realized that he could be and would be violent towards me. But as much as I agree with Tom's statement I also disagree. It just seems odd that I am not only responsible if I am a jerk but I am responsible if he is a jerk. Doesn't he hold any of the responsibility for his own behavior? But I do agree that if I didn't react there wouldn't be anywhere for all that negativity to go. I won't answer the phone next time. And that is truly a sad thing. He has finally done it. He has pushed me to the place where I don't want to try to be friends. I don't want to try to get along. I just want to try to forget I ever knew him.
His birthday was on Friday and our anniversary was yesterday. I saw that he called me yesterday but I couldn't answer. There was a chance he wanted to pick up the boys. But even that wasn't motivation enough to answer. I am tired of him using the boys, I am just tired of the whole thing. When I think about the things I said on Thursday it makes me feel dirty and awful. That is not who I am or what I am about. Why would I let anyone even Don take me to a place where I am spewing out insults like that on Thanksgiving? I sincerely hope that Cam didn't hear any of what I said. But the bottom line is Don didn't call and ask to speak to Cam. He didn't call and invite his sons to go to dinner with him. And even when he called the 1st time and we were having a somewhat civilized conversation he didn't wish me a Happy Thanksgiving or ask what the boys had been up to or what our plans were. So it would be naive to think that he was calling for the boys yesterday.
No he was calling to finish what he started. He was calling because after more than a decade of tirades and down right disrespect from him I struck back and landed a punch right between the eyes. He decided years ago that if I won't come back, if I won't live with him the way HE wants, then he will make sure that I am miserable on my own. I have tried every way I can think of to keep him in the boys life and also keep him from making me miserable. And I am resigned to raise the boys alone (I essentially have been doing that anyway) if that is what it will take to move forward...
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Cat, I am not suggesting that this is a "blame the victim" situation; in fact, when I'm saying that "women allow it", I'm not talking specifically about you. It's my belief that women in general tend to excuse or ignore jerky behavior from guys. Sometimes they actually encourage it, although they do so under a different guise; when men do something stupid once or twice, that's normal boundary setting, but after several months of guys being disrespectful and women allowing them to "apologize" without atoning simply reinforces their attitude that they can get away with anything as long as they look sheepish for a couple of days and buy flowers.
Please note that I have no idea what things were like with you and your husband, nor do I pretend to. I'm reacting as one of the millions of "nice" guys who have wondered time and again why women always seem to ignore us in favor of the "bad boys".
And yes, your husband needs to be responsible for his own behavior; I have no idea why he's gone separated for ten years. To me, that's totally whacked. All you can be responsible for is your own behavior; removing yourself from the relationship and moving forward has obviously taught you a lot more than it's taught him.
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There is a truism that women don't go for "nice" guys. There is also a truism that men tend to go for "bitchy" women. Unfortunately, the nice women go for the jerks and the nice guys go for the bitchy women. Too bad we can't all simply switch ;-)
No insult intended, of course; I was just making a general statement about human nature.
Tom Allen
The Edge of Vanilla
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Right after college, a good friend and I rented an apartment together, our first bachelor pad. No lava lights or shag carpeting, but it was a nice place, warm, off-street parking, and working utilities.
My friend and I were both known as being polite, attentive, sensitive, and well read.
Translation: we were often dateless on Saturday nights.
And Fridays.
Not much happening on Thursdays, either, unless you count the chaste kiss (of death) followed by "I really like you as a friend..."
Anyway, my friend finally snapped under the pressure. He decided that the only way to get any action was to be a real jerk. An "insufferable bastard", I beleive he termed it. And he methodically set about acting as boorish and loutish as one could imagine. I tried this, too, but when we traded tales, he was much better at it than I. He stood women up, neglected to call them afterwards, stopped taking them to nice places for dinner and took them instead to dives. He stopped picking them up, insisting that dates meet him someplace.
And unbelievably, his social calendar was always full. He did this for about a year and a half. I met many of his dates; some of them worked with him, some of them met him through other friends. The weirdest part was that some of them told me that they had never really "noticed" him before, but lately found that there was something "different" about him. One of them used to call me monthly to complain about how he never called her anymore, and asked if he had mentioned anything about her lately.
He and I lost touch over the years, but ran into each other a few years ago, and we spent a few hours talking about that whole thing. I now think that he used it as an excuse to take out some hositility on women in general, but that's a completely unprofessional opinion. But the fact remains that date-wise, he was much more "succesful" at attracting women when he acted like a jerk.
He finally met someone that he liked enough to make him stop. There is no small irony in that she turned out to have a bitchy streak a mile wide, and after about 15 years, she divorced him.
I'm sure that there's a lesson in here someplace.
Tom Allen
The Edge of Vanilla
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Do I think men behave the way they do because of women, because they are successful at getting women with that behavior so they continue it. Yes I think there is some truth to that statement. But do I think that women have been conditioned to accept that behavior as strength and taught to believe that men without that "strength" will not make good mates, yes I also think that is true.
My hope is that the men who haven't been ruined by the mean bitches or misguided by the rewards of bad behavior will show up in my life and hopefully my vision has cleared enough to recognize them when they do.
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I think that this is very insightful. You condensed two hours of my writing to one simple sentence.
I hate you.
But do I think that women have been conditioned to accept that behavior as strength and taught to believe that men without that "strength" will not make good mates,
I used to listen to "talk radio - don't laugh - and back when I'd first heard Dr. Laura, a woman called the show to complain that her husband of 25 years was "very controlling" and now that the kids were in college, and she wanted to take classes herself and do other things besides be a housewife, he was becoming unbearable.
When I heard that, I was about to change the station, figuring that she'd tell him to dump the guy and indulge in a little man-bashing. To my surprise, she told the woman that back when they were dating, her husband was probably "controlling" back then, but she didn't see it that way; she probably saw her husband as being competent and capable and appreciated the degree of detail and planning that he put into things. Yes, the caller agreed.
Dr. Laura went on to describe how common it is; at 22 the caller was too insecure to go off on her own, so she married her college sweetheart. Now that she feels secure, she perceives him to be "controlling", when the truth is that he hasn't changed much at all. So now, he's spent 20 odd years taking care of her - in his own way - only to find out that all those things that he thought he was doing right are suddenly wrong.
Cat, this is obviously not your situation; I just tossed that story out to illustrate something. First, obviously not all men are jerks. And guys at 18 or 24 simply have not learned the finesse and consideration that guys at 38 or 44 should have developed. Second, as I mentioned to Dessie - sometimes it's a matter of perspective. What you see as "strong" and as an insecure 21 yo is completely different from what you see as a competent 31 yo.
And so interesting about Jermaine ending up with the bitchy types.
Someday I'll have to tell you about my first - very short - marriage to C'thulara ("She who must not be named").
My hope is that the men who haven't been ruined by the mean bitches or misguided by the rewards of bad behavior will show up in my life and hopefully my vision has cleared enough to recognize them when they do.
Wow! That was especially insightful, especially that last part. After you've been hurt, it's very, very easy to keep a poor perspective, and to not recognize when something good comes along. But you're obviously both very bright and very capable; I'm sure that when the time comes you're going to rock out!
Tom Allen
The Edge of Vanilla
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Just wanted to clear up the fact that the Don I was talking about, my "Don(ald)" is actually my father -- who didn't call me or my sister over the holidays which is pretty jerky of him. Nor did he answer his phone when we called him, his excuse being that he was cooking dinner for "his family" (his parents) and was busy.
I can't do much about him being a jerk unless I decide to stop talking about him period but his behavior, along with Cat's Don's, just reinforced my view that men tend to be jerks. I was speaking of men in general, of course; but since I've only met three of you mysterious nice guys in my whole 26 years on Earth, so I figure "jerk" is a term that I can apply to the majority with great confidence.
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That said, I'd also wonder why in 26 years you've met three nice guys. I happen to know that they aren't that much of a minority. Perhaps it's a matter of perspective.
But my main point was that over successive generations a large majority of women have tolerated or even condoned jerky behavior in men. I believe that people - both men and women - will tend to test, if not push he boundaries of their relationships. Some - some - men do this by asserting a form of independence, that is, evincing behaviors that are meant to provide emotional distance. Drinking and gambling all night with the guys, being less considerate about family matters, etc. are examples of this.
Other behaviors are even less explicable; for example, Cat's Don must be some kind of control freak because he's exhibiting attidues of someone who is very possesive and controling, even though they have not been "married" in ten years except in name.
I think that if both men and women were more assertive in outlining their boundaries right form the beginning of a relationship, that there would be fewer instances of the "jerky" and "bitchy" behaivor that those on both sides of the gender line complain of.
Tom Allen
The Edge of Vanilla
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